moregw developer IRC session, May 16th


19:53:25 --> k-fish ( has joined #moregroupware
19:53:25 --- Notify: hondzik is online (
19:53:26 -ChanServ- [#moregroupware] Welcome to the Moregroupware community...
19:53:48 <k-fish> hi. hope i got the time about right :-)
19:53:48 <yoyo> hi karsten
19:54:15 <hondzik> hi
19:54:29 <hondzik> yoyo: and there is also a lot of calendar related feature request...
19:54:46 <k-fish> yoyo = christian?!?
19:54:56 <yoyo> ja, der palm type
19:55:14 <k-fish> yoyo: sorry, i read your mail, but didn't reply...
19:55:24 <yoyo> no problem
19:55:43 <k-fish> but the overall plan seems good :-) gradually enabling functionality is good.
19:56:26 --> brr ( has joined #Moregroupware
19:56:26 --- Notify: brr is online (
19:56:27 <yoyo> hondzik: i understand. seams a lot of work to do.
19:56:33 --- k-fish has changed the topic to: developer IRC session - k-fish is logging...
19:56:51 <hondzik> yoyo: yeah
19:57:15 <hondzik> k-fish: quite big cvs update today :)
19:57:37 <k-fish> yup :-) hope it works for more people than just me.
19:58:02 <hondzik> I will try it after this chat...
19:58:14 <hondzik> what topics want we discuss?
19:58:44 <hondzik> future of 0.7?
19:58:46 <k-fish> who will be there?
19:58:52 <k-fish> is Loge about to show up?
19:59:37 <hondzik> probably not :( it seems that only stunti, you, me and yoyo...
20:00:21 <k-fish> i have printouts of your mail, my mail and loges mail (about xml->db setup) with me. as well as some other points.
20:00:50 <hondzik> and Tomas Sanchez write me mail that he will join us too
20:00:58 <hondzik> so where will we start?
20:01:11 <k-fish> maybe you can tell me if you read my email (and the other mails) and we can walk through all the stuff step by step.
20:01:38 <k-fish> i'd start with your mail, hondzik, it was rather short :-)
20:01:47 <k-fish> who read it?
20:01:59 <hondzik> I read yours :)
20:02:09 <k-fish> ;)

developer roles, new modules

20:02:56 <k-fish> ok, developer roles, let's do that first. i will compile a table of the results...
20:03:12 <k-fish> i will do notes, further work on todo.
20:03:56 <hondzik> my coleague LI is logging too (if yours connection hangs)
20:06:06 <hondzik> so who is still active?
20:06:08 <k-fish> let's talk. are you already asleep?
20:06:22 <hondzik> let's go on
20:06:30 <k-fish> t.sanchez was very active with the files module.
20:06:34 <yoyo> me is listening. i am not a dev.
20:06:38 <hondzik> no, I have phone call from my mother :)
20:07:14 <k-fish> maybe we can check it (the files module) and make him a developer on he could then work on this independently.
20:07:15 <hondzik> some laguage maintaners are active too, but I dont know which :(
20:07:37 <k-fish> in theory the ones on the i18n page...
20:07:38 <hondzik> I agree, there is a lot of request for files module
20:07:58 <hondzik> yeah, theory...
20:08:19 * brr is the maintainer of the Norwegian translation.
20:08:35 <k-fish> brr: you are working silenbtly, but effectively...
20:08:44 <hondzik> brr: yeah, one of the most active
20:09:00 <k-fish> but you didn't submit that many bugtracker items lately :-)
20:09:54 <hondzik> we must stabilize our 0.6 tree asap, because I don't want to fix anything on the old cvs
20:10:10 <k-fish> who did the tts module in 0.7 CVS? loge, stunti and lukas committed, but who is _maintaining_ it?
20:10:22 <k-fish> let's talk about CVS trees later
20:10:27 <hondzik> not me
20:10:40 <k-fish> did you ever test it?
20:11:00 <k-fish> it is another often requested functionality
20:11:10 <hondzik> by definition.xml it was Olivier BREGERAS
20:11:26 * k-fish slaps his head (could have looked there...)
20:11:43 <k-fish> ... i did cvs log :-)
20:12:13 --- stunti_away is now known as stunti
20:12:22 <k-fish> so it seems as if there is no clear assigment for most modules. maybe we should just pick one after the other and work on it.
20:12:36 <hondzik> right
20:12:45 <k-fish> stunti: would you take care of the tts module in the future?
20:13:31 <stunti> yes of course
20:13:36 <k-fish> fine :-)
20:13:38 <stunti> but it POO
20:13:44 <k-fish> it what?!?
20:13:51 <stunti> so I must rewrite it for the current tree
20:14:11 <stunti> object
20:14:23 <k-fish> hmmm... would it be too hard?
20:14:29 <stunti> sorry (POO is in french :) )
20:14:51 <stunti> no but it will take lot of time
20:15:20 <k-fish> wouldn't it suffice to wrap it (like the notes module, just the other way round)?
20:15:38 <stunti> maybe yes
20:15:41 <k-fish> otherwise, leave it as it is and let's see what way OO'ing takes...
20:15:46 <stunti> I ll take a look at it
20:15:53 <k-fish> good. any more on developer roles?
20:16:00 <k-fish> who is doing what?
20:16:53 <hondzik> I can take todos, contacs, settings and probably calendar
20:17:08 <hondzik> but I don't wont them all :)
20:17:26 <k-fish> i'll do todo (had a good start today :-)
20:17:34 <hondzik> I know
20:17:47 <k-fish> and maybe contacts, there are some itches to scratch for me personally...
20:18:05 <k-fish> leaves you with calendar, that is important i think
20:18:23 <hondzik> thank's a lot :) the easiest one
20:18:38 <hondzik> but i need it in our company
20:18:39 <stunti> I ll tak headline and tts
20:18:54 <k-fish> speaking about important modules: did someone have closer look at the webmail module that emailtotom is working on?
20:19:01 <hondzik> and I will take partprog
20:19:18 <hondzik> not me
20:19:53 <k-fish> i had some email conversation with him, i will check how he is doing. would be _very_good_ to have a working webmail again...
20:20:14 <stunti> yes
20:20:15 <yoyo> oh, have to leave. bye
20:20:15 <hondzik> yeah, lot of requests too
20:20:22 <stunti> bye
20:20:22 <hondzik> bye
20:20:25 <-- yoyo has quit ()
20:20:43 <hondzik> so who will take the core?
20:20:47 <k-fish> regarding translations: i will (hopefully this week) get a danish translation.
20:21:05 <stunti> not really the easiest
20:21:07 <k-fish> hmmm. the core. did you read the summary of the last IRC session?
20:21:20 <hondzik> great, I'm trying to push my friend to polish translation
20:21:25 <hondzik> yes, i read it
20:21:25 <k-fish> we had some good ideas there. and (sort of) a plan on how to proceed.
20:21:41 <k-fish> (involving newb and me....)

CVS future

20:22:04 <hondzik> here is a major question: what will we do with 2 cvs trees?
20:22:14 <k-fish> but core changes should be done when CVS future is clear, i think.
20:22:21 <k-fish> :)
20:22:33 <k-fish> then lets talk about that next!
20:22:51 <stunti> I think we must save the current 0.7.x CVS and stop it
20:22:52 <hondzik> and also we must be sure about php version requirements
20:23:03 <hondzik> stunti: i agree
20:23:07 <k-fish> you all know my opinion, i think. dump 0.7 CVS
20:23:14 <stunti> after we go on with the 0.6.x branch
20:23:28 <k-fish> clear up, fix bugs, make it as secure as possible...
20:23:42 <hondzik> and bugless :)
20:23:53 <k-fish> and when time has come s/$HTTP_*_VARS/$_*
20:24:07 <k-fish> (but this is a minor issue)
20:24:36 <hondzik> ok, so we will continue wuth php 4.0.6 compatibility
20:24:47 <stunti> I think yes
20:25:17 <k-fish> yes. use HTTP_*_VARS everywhere. this makes it more secure, and easy to switch to 4.[12].x-only-mode :-)
20:25:31 <k-fish> and still makes it 4.0.6 compatible...

PHP compatibility, template names, include files, general confusion :)

20:26:22 <k-fish> so we all agree? next topic? roadmap?
20:27:06 <stunti> why not having something like mozilla (each month)
20:27:17 <hondzik> I want to discuss few more structural changes...
20:27:34 <hondzik> what do you think about .inc file extension? is it secure? you must asociate it for php to make it secure...
20:28:06 <stunti> maybe with a .htaccess ?
20:28:08 <k-fish> i deny serving of *.inc on my webserver. but then i am lucky, having my own server.
20:28:42 <k-fish> .htaccess is only for Apache. on the other hand, someone who cares about security will not use anythign else :)
20:28:57 <stunti> :)
20:29:02 <hondzik> but somebody can't setup his server...
20:29:07 <k-fish> where are security related things? can't the most inc files be safely given away?
20:29:33 <hondzik> I would prefer to rename it to .php
20:29:38 <k-fish> is it anything aside from (which already has this ending)?
20:29:45 <stunti> .inc.php
20:29:56 <hondzik> yeah inc.php
20:30:03 <k-fish> ok, you got me... let's rename to inc.php
20:30:11 <hondzik> great!!!
20:30:50 <hondzik> and what about template names? [module]_templatename?
20:31:28 <hondzik> just to avoid future problems with same names...
20:31:42 <stunti> yeah
20:31:51 <k-fish> talking about this, can we close all bugs on missing ispublic values?
20:32:00 <k-fish> this was the reason, right?
20:32:01 <hondzik> i hope so
20:32:35 <k-fish> are all templates uniquely named by now, or is this an open task? does somebody know?
20:32:45 <hondzik> is there any naming convention?
20:33:03 <stunti> I dont know anyone
20:33:08 <k-fish> yes, we agreed on one in the last IRC session.
20:33:19 <hondzik> I hope it's unique, but only few modules have modulename_xxx templates
20:33:24 <k-fish> lemme look for it...
20:34:39 -->JackShedd (~jack@ has joined #Moregroupware
20:34:43 <stunti> hi
20:34:43 <hondzik> I can't find it in log...
20:34:56 <JackShedd> weird...
20:35:05 <hondzik> k-fish: i think it was in mail discussion...
20:35:08 <k-fish> hmm cannot either... but i have something on this here, somewhere
20:35:13 <hondzik> hi Jack
20:35:17 <JackShedd> Hello!!
20:35:42 <JackShedd> Wondering what's going on with the 0.7 branch...
20:35:48 <k-fish> i will look for the module name thing. lets go on.
20:35:57 <hondzik> ok
20:36:15 <hondzik> so who will do the renaming? module maintaners?
20:36:24 <k-fish> so, everybody checks 'his' modules temnplate names, after I sent the naming rules to the dev list. agreed?
20:36:32 <k-fish> hondzik: yes
20:36:33 <stunti> Yeah
20:36:46 <hondzik> agree, and .inc.php too
20:36:50 <k-fish> yes
20:36:57 <stunti> yes
20:36:59 <hondzik> ok, lets go on
20:37:08 <hondzik> we forgot on Projects module...
20:37:14 <hondzik> who did it?
20:37:17 <k-fish> hmmm. can do it.
20:37:20 <stunti> loge I think
20:37:34 <k-fish> he is busy at the moment, AFAIK
20:37:51 <k-fish> and he is working on the translator java app, no?
20:37:53 <hondzik> so it's yours :)
20:38:01 <k-fish> damnit ;)
20:38:10 <hondzik> congratulation
20:38:14 <k-fish> ok, roadmap?
20:38:19 <hondzik> yes
20:38:38 <k-fish> i'd release 0.6.4 ASAP.
20:38:59 <hondzik> yes, it's a must
20:39:05 <k-fish> have been a lot of fixes (and changes) that need to be tested *evilgrin*
20:39:15 <brr> Hm. "My" Norwegian bug lives yet in CVS version of MGW 0.6.x
20:39:23 <stunti> Maybe we could plan at 3 or 6 month ?
20:39:34 <k-fish> brr: about contact letters?
20:40:12 <brr> k-fish: Yes. If I press or or .
20:40:33 <k-fish> did you read my comment on it? about PHP4.2/Apache2?
20:40:49 <k-fish> what do you think? (officially it is an unstable combo)
20:40:50 <brr> k-fish: Whops. No...
20:41:02 <k-fish> no problem.
20:41:03 <JackShedd> Has anyone used 0.70 as a base for a deployment?
20:41:16 <k-fish> JackShedd: no, it will be dumped.
20:41:19 <brr> k-fish: But it is a strange problem!
20:41:19 <hondzik> jack: I don't
20:41:43 <k-fish> brr: yes. i will look into it, I have an idea for a solution.
20:41:44 <brr> k-fish: If I use Mozilla in stead of IE I do not get the problem. Even with PHP/4.2.
20:41:52 <JackShedd> woah. They're dumping 0.7?
20:42:19 <brr> k-fish: But in Mozilla the login picture is corrupted. I do not get the logo.
20:42:23 <k-fish> JackShedd: it is very similar to 0.6 by now. and doing all the work twice is more than tedious...
20:42:38 <JackShedd> So is 0.6 going OO?
20:43:02 <k-fish> JackShedd: probably, some time. it won't be slower than on 0.7.x i'd say.
20:43:12 <k-fish> brr: logo? on the login screen?
20:43:17 <hondzik> Jack: yes, step by step...
20:43:30 <JackShedd> so...I should abandon all the code I have for 0.7 and write for 0.6?
20:43:39 <brr> k-fish: Below Login - Moregroupware [Release 0.6.3 - Neo] you have little logo.
20:44:04 <brr> k-fish: It looks like a key... This key is missing if I use Mozilla.
20:44:06 <JackShedd> arg. i just rewrote my modules for 0.7...arg arg arg...
20:44:16 <k-fish> ah, the key icon? it works here... i renamed it today, are you using a fresh CVS checkout?
20:44:17 <JackShedd> anyone know who is in charge of the calendar rewrite?
20:44:31 <k-fish> JackShedd: yes, hondzik :)
20:44:32 <hondzik> Jack: me
20:44:33 <brr> k-fish: Yes. Downloaded for about 10 minutes ago.
20:45:19 <JackShedd> hondzik: any hints on where it is headed?
20:45:22 <k-fish> brr: strange...

roadmap 0.6.4/0.6.5

20:45:27 <k-fish> ok, back to the roadmap?
20:45:42 <k-fish> what are release-critical bugs for 0.6.4
20:45:53 <hondzik> jack: not yet, it's a 10 minutes old decission
20:46:03 <k-fish> votings, please...
20:46:23 <hondzik> k-fish: modularity (not all modules must be installed)
20:46:30 <JackShedd> ah. I'm sorry if I'm interrupting a dev talk here...
20:46:59 <k-fish> there is some dependency stuff in the new setup xml files...
20:47:18 <k-fish> but is modularity really critical for 0.6.4?
20:47:44 <hondzik> i'm not sure, there is a lot of improvements and bugfixes from 0.6.3
20:47:57 <hondzik> we must stabilize it and test it now
20:48:28 <hondzik> and probably work on some little feature requests
20:49:09 <k-fish> ok. could we release 0.6.4 sometime next week (towards the end)? and fix some more bugs until then?
20:49:26 <k-fish> and then work on some feature requests for 0.6.5?
20:49:34 <k-fish> (and more gibfixing, of course)
20:49:46 <k-fish> s/gib/bug
20:50:05 <k-fish> maybe we should just set up a (rough) timeline...
20:50:07 <hondzik> I hope so, maybe 27th of may
20:50:20 <k-fish> hondzik: sounds good
20:50:31 <stunti> ok for the 27th
20:50:42 <k-fish> and then 27th of june, july, ... ?!?
20:50:51 <stunti> may
20:50:53 <JackShedd> is there a running list of to-dos one could look at?
20:51:15 <hondzik> jack: buglist :)
20:51:26 <k-fish> JackShedd: I will summarize this session, then there will be. and, yes, buglist
20:51:35 <k-fish> :o)
20:51:53 <k-fish> ok, so 0.6.4 will release on may, 27th. agreed?
20:51:58 <hondzik> we should clean buglist before next release
20:52:07 <hondzik> yes, I agree
20:52:18 <k-fish> completely? wowwowo... or before 0.6.5?
20:52:28 <hondzik> before 0.6.5
20:52:35 <k-fish> ok. fine with me.
20:52:55 <stunti> for me too
20:53:19 <hondzik> for me too
20:53:30 * k-fish looks into the future: what about cleaning bugs and feature requests for 1.0 and then start changing the core?
20:53:42 <hondzik> why not
20:54:02 <hondzik> maybe few new functions before it :)
20:54:24 <hondzik> and maybe better user rights settings

rights management system

20:54:37 <k-fish> hah! next topic? user right system?
20:54:47 <k-fish> (finished with roadmap?)
20:54:59 <k-fish> (at least for 0.6.x?)
20:55:24 <hondzik> something like unix user/group/others
20:55:34 <hondzik> sure, finished
20:55:40 <stunti> I like it
20:55:51 <hondzik> a lot of work behind us
20:57:48 <k-fish> what is wrong with the current system? it is roughly the same, no?
20:58:27 <JackShedd> settings don't make any sense...
20:58:37 <JackShedd> at least not without some investigation.
20:58:50 <brr> I'm back! A new bug report submitted!
20:58:51 <k-fish> every user/group can have individual right on a module. every user can be in one or more groups. so?
20:59:33 <hondzik> you can't have 2 groups, which can have separate contacts, for example (i think)
20:59:34 <k-fish> brr: assigned to me. :)
20:59:41 <k-fish> hondzik: right.
20:59:54 <stunti> brr:Maybe you could send the vcard
21:00:14 <brr> stunti: Give me your address!
21:00:32 <k-fish> brr: yes, send it to me as well. (appendix: i maintain vcard, if noone objects...)
21:00:32 <stunti>
21:00:35 <brr> stunti: I am using Outlook XP. Just in case that counts!
21:00:48 <stunti> kfish:of course :)
21:00:58 <k-fish> would be interesting to know the vcard version. i support only 2.1 (currently)
21:01:19 <stunti> what about vcal and ical ?
21:01:22 <k-fish> stunti: of course you object? :)
21:01:45 <k-fish> well, i just wanted to make the obvious functionality work again...
21:01:46 <brr> k-fish: And your address is?
21:02:10 <k-fish>, or
21:02:15 <brr> I also got problems with deleting the vCard importet contact again.
21:02:22 <brr> I had to log out and log in as admin.
21:02:32 <k-fish> brr: ?!?!? i will look at it.
21:02:38 <stunti> should we wait for the new calendar ?
21:02:42 <brr> It should been possible for the user to delete the own imported contacts.
21:02:56 <k-fish> stunti: should be a small fix...
21:02:57 <JackShedd> is calendar being rewritten from the ground up? or is just being patched?
21:03:03 <k-fish> brr: seems to make sense :-)
21:03:03 <hondzik> off-topic: maybe we should look for some csv parser, I see nice one in phpgroupware. We should use it for a lot of imports...
21:03:15 <k-fish> hondzik: yes.
21:03:15 <hondzik> Jack: probably rewritten
21:03:35 <k-fish> can look at phpmyadmin as well.
21:03:44 <JackShedd> into what form? OO?
21:03:57 <k-fish> rights system again? (lets get things ordered a bit)
21:04:05 <JackShedd> sorry :(
21:04:14 <k-fish> no problem...
21:04:37 * k-fish just wants to have it easier when writing the summary
21:04:43 <hondzik> :)
21:05:01 <JackShedd> wouldn't it make more sense for an intranet to use an ACL instead of UNIX perms?
21:05:45 <brr> Ok. I know you are tired of my fuss. But just one little thing before I take a break. Do you now if this sentence from the webmail module is hardcoded: Failed to connect to POP server on port .
21:05:48 <hondzik> jack: I found it more difficult to implement
21:06:01 <JackShedd> but it would be easier to use...
21:06:56 <JackShedd> While the database behind it would certainley be more complicated, you could do a great deal more with an ACL...
21:07:13 <k-fish> brr: yes, hardcoded
21:07:36 <k-fish> i once wrote a (IMHO) nice rights system, I can send the files to the list.
21:07:46 <JackShedd> I may still have some of my old code from when I did it for PN...might be of use...
21:07:47 <k-fish> maybe it can be a base
21:07:54 <k-fish> PN?
21:07:59 <JackShedd> PostNuke
21:08:03 <k-fish> ah.
21:08:18 <JackShedd> A bit more complicated then what MGW would need, but, the model could probably be adopted.
21:08:20 --- brr is now known as brr_away
21:08:25 --- Notify: brr is offline (
21:09:02 <k-fish> but: do we need it? what exactly is missing from the current system?
21:09:09 <k-fish> arguments, please :)
21:09:26 <JackShedd> I find the current system WAY too difficult.
21:09:33 <hondzik> cooperation of more independent groups on one installation of mgw
21:09:35 <JackShedd> I couldn't explain it too one of my users if I tried.
21:11:03 <k-fish> ok. what would you like to have (just a rough sketch, so we can agree on a direction)
21:11:50 <hondzik> i think it will be enough for us to have for each record rights for user/group/others
21:12:08 <k-fish> and user/group ownership
21:12:16 <hondzik> yes
21:12:38 <k-fish> but then you could not give two groups read right, for example...
21:12:47 <hondzik> we can handle private records with this as well
21:13:14 <hondzik> but you can give it read permission for 'others'
21:13:37 <k-fish> yes, but then the members of the third group can read it as well...
21:14:18 <hondzik> k-fish: damned, you're right...
21:14:29 <k-fish> what about a poll on what would you like? ACL? unix rights? current scheme?
21:14:43 <k-fish> at last the users have to use it...
21:14:45 <hondzik> why not
21:15:25 <k-fish> wo writes up the questions?
21:15:48 <hondzik> k-fish: sorry?
21:16:40 <k-fish> for the poll...
21:16:56 <k-fish> let's compile them quickly.
21:17:02 <k-fish> 1. current system
21:17:08 <k-fish> 2. full-blown ACL
21:17:14 <k-fish> 3. unix rights system
21:17:18 <k-fish> more?
21:17:34 <hondzik> i think it's enough
21:17:46 <k-fish> ok, i will set up the poll on
21:18:09 <k-fish> and then we will wait for the results, and discuss again later.
21:18:23 <hondzik> ok
21:18:30 <k-fish> you all agree? JackShedd?
21:18:47 <stunti> kfish: yes
21:18:54 <hondzik> yes

contextual help system

21:19:15 <k-fish> ok, next topic. contextual help system?
21:19:23 <hondzik> yes
21:19:28 <k-fish> (following your list, hondzik)
21:19:50 <stunti> Is there any editor for the dita xml file ?
21:19:50 <k-fish> ok, i wrote this little example. did everyone see the output?
21:20:21 <k-fish> stunti: any xml editor will do. i tried Komodo, nice but expensive :(
21:20:32 <stunti> kfish not me :(
21:20:42 <k-fish> it is at
21:21:01 <k-fish> this would be what the user sees after clicking the help submenu item.
21:21:31 <k-fish> i have a way of integrating it, needs to be refined a little, but should be quickly done.
21:22:15 <k-fish> do you have any special wishes on how to integrate help into MGW?
21:22:42 <stunti> kfish : not really
21:22:45 <hondzik> is there any way to localize it? I mean something like to look for file help.cs.html for czech people and if it doesn't exist, use english one...
21:23:18 <k-fish> hondzik: yes. if the translators do their work ;)
21:23:52 <hondzik> yes
21:23:55 <stunti> I think this is a lot of work , but needed work
21:24:02 <k-fish> does anyone _really_ object to using DITA for the documentation?
21:24:06 <k-fish> stunti: true...
21:24:21 <k-fish> i can try to put up a list of xml editors...
21:24:32 <hondzik> there should be a way, how to refer to #submenu_name in the file
21:24:35 <k-fish> ... that work with DITA (well enough)
21:24:49 <stunti> kfish : ok
21:24:49 <k-fish> hondzik: ?
21:25:25 <k-fish> hondzik: ah, i think you understand...
21:25:33 <hondzik> I mean if you are in calendar day view, the link should be /??/??/help.html#day_view
21:25:52 <k-fish> yes. should be possible.
21:25:56 <hondzik> great
21:26:22 <k-fish> will have to check DITA on how to generate named anchors in it's output, but i guess it can do.
21:26:33 <k-fish> anything else on help?
21:26:46 <hondzik> no
21:27:09 <k-fish> ok, so i will commit help stuff somewhen after 0.6.4 is out... and thenwe will see.

using XML for db structure

21:27:21 <k-fish> next topic. xml for db structure?
21:27:41 <k-fish> or does this not make sense wothout loge?
21:29:08 <hondzik> I like the XML idea and if we already have xml parser ...
21:30:05 <hondzik> but if we will use XML db definitions, we must rewrite setup :(
21:30:06 <k-fish> yes, but do we have a way to create the database from the xml?
21:30:36 <k-fish> if we want to go that way, we might use metabase (if only for db setup)
21:30:50 <k-fish> or look at turbine, if something for creating db from xml exists.
21:30:51 <hondzik> I'm not sure, but I think I read something about it on AdoDB homepage
21:31:17 <k-fish> if adodb would support this, we would be set. could it be that simple?
21:32:44 <hondzik> well, it's in Ado roadmap, but they want to implement MSSQL DTD :(
21:33:59 <k-fish> is it impossible to write SQL compatible with at least some important db? mysql for example understands foreign key(), so we could add this to take advanbtage from it on pgsql.
21:34:09 <k-fish> and dump type=myisam, to make pgsql happy.
21:34:22 <k-fish> and so on. wouldn't it be worth a try?
21:34:43 <k-fish> before we start something all-new (we have enough work, don't we?)
21:34:46 <hondzik> sure, we must try to be DB independent
21:35:32 <stunti> sure
21:35:32 <hondzik> I tried it with concat and it's most recent bug in buglist :)
21:36:24 <k-fish> hondzik: adodb allows to have concat adapted automagically...
21:36:33 <hondzik> sorry, my english is bad today, recent=often
21:36:56 <k-fish> it is in use already, some pieces of code need to be updated still, that's true.
21:37:42 <hondzik> there is also something with LIMIT what can be done with ADO function
21:38:07 <k-fish> so, will we try it this way first?
21:38:14 <hondzik> yes
21:39:02 <k-fish> same as with the template names: everyone checks his 'own' modules first (concat, limit, ...)?
21:39:10 <k-fish> all agree?
21:39:19 <hondzik> k-fish: yes
21:39:44 <k-fish> stunti: still with us?
21:39:48 <hondzik> and also check if arrays are quoted
21:41:14 <k-fish> yes. did that for 0.7 in a lot of files... well, well...
21:41:20 <k-fish> :)
21:41:30 <hondzik> yes, me with 0.6 :)

using XML for ChangeLog

21:41:37 <k-fish> next topic? XML for changelog?
21:41:43 <k-fish> I AM AGAINST IT!
21:41:53 <k-fish> sorry for shouting, but did you ever use emacs?
21:42:02 <k-fish> C-x 4 a and you are set
21:42:09 <k-fish> wonderful...
21:42:12 <hondzik> ok
21:42:32 <k-fish> no offense, but it is really nice to have this functionality.
21:42:33 <hondzik> well, I thied it with XML for a while and I agree. too complcated sollution for changelog :)
21:42:49 <stunti> I am back
21:43:19 <k-fish> it might be nice to be able to rip all 'imprtant' changes from the changelog automatically when using xml, but it is not worth it, i'd say.
21:43:39 <hondzik> I agree
21:44:18 <k-fish> ok. but maybe more developers should write to the changelog, don't you thin?
21:44:20 <stunti> (I read last post) for me too
21:44:56 <hondzik> everybody should write his changes, and maybe also number of fixed bug
21:45:28 <stunti> why not having a changelog in each module and concat tham when realesed a new version of MGW
21:45:34 <k-fish> number of fixed bugs could be seen on but definitely the bug number would be good.
21:45:56 <k-fish> stunti: would make the modules more independent. why not...
21:46:08 <hondzik> stuni: I agree
21:46:30 <k-fish> what about changes to settings and general when they are caused by work on a module?
21:46:42 <k-fish> both (global/module) changelogs?
21:47:25 <k-fish> hmmm... what about the date order? it would be lost when concatenating the logs...
21:47:42 <stunti> each developper who maid a modification modify the changelog of setting and general
21:47:58 <hondzik> k-fish: hm, so back to one general changelog...
21:47:58 <k-fish> stunti: simple.
21:48:04 * k-fish is slapping his head again...
21:48:13 <stunti> ok
21:48:20 <stunti> just an idea :)
21:48:40 <hondzik> it looked great
21:48:53 <k-fish> one changelog? looks more impressive anyway :)
21:49:01 <stunti> :
21:49:04 <stunti> :)
21:49:17 <JackShedd> shouldn't there be a centralized method of versioning/changes?
21:49:22 <JackShedd> similar to YaBB?
21:49:35 <k-fish> JackShedd: never heard of that. can you explain a little?
21:50:21 <JackShedd> YaBB uses XML-RPC to manage it's changelog, and versioning....
21:50:37 <JackShedd> Their developer site hosts a central database of modules/developers
21:50:50 <JackShedd> with attached bugs, feature reqs. etc...
21:51:06 <JackShedd> Updates are done via a nifty archiving/intsall method.
21:51:14 <JackShedd> It's very well thought out...very cool...
21:51:20 <JackShedd> alot of code though...
21:51:25 <k-fish> sounds complex.
21:51:32 <JackShedd> it is :)
21:51:39 <hondzik> very complex...
21:51:40 <JackShedd> could be simpler though.
21:51:48 <k-fish> for now i'd stick to CVS, ChangeLog and
21:51:56 <hondzik> me too
21:52:03 <JackShedd> just an idea.
21:52:04 <JackShedd> :)
21:52:19 <k-fish> maybe later, is this system available somewhere?
21:52:44 <k-fish> (might be cool to look at anyway)
21:52:48 <JackShedd> have to find it...
21:52:56 <JackShedd> been a few months since I explored it.
21:53:16 <k-fish> JackShedd: ok, you can send a link to the list when you found it...
21:53:52 <JackShedd> sure. what's your e-mail address?

minimal system requirements

21:53:59 <k-fish> next on the list: minimal system requirements...
21:54:15 <k-fish> ( or
21:54:32 <hondzik> already discussed: php 4.0.6 (minimal for smarty 2.x)
21:54:46 <k-fish> we talked a little already. php 4.0.6.
21:54:56 <k-fish> do we still need pear? i guess not, right?
21:55:17 <hondzik> right, great!!!
21:55:22 <JackShedd> what are you guys doing for DB abstraction?
21:55:29 <k-fish> adodb
21:55:34 <JackShedd> ah.
21:55:38 <hondzik> it was only needed for smarty error reporting
21:55:53 <JackShedd> and that's being removed?
21:55:59 <hondzik> yes
21:56:11 <JackShedd> righto.
21:56:29 <hondzik> there were a lot of pear related errors
21:56:48 <k-fish> what about modules? like the calendaring stuff (hondzik, you remember? :)
21:56:55 <k-fish> as less a possible?
21:57:13 <k-fish> there is one special case: IMAP
21:57:20 <hondzik> AdoDB 2.0 needs PHP4.01pl2 or later
21:57:40 <k-fish> hondzik: you mean 4.1....?
21:57:45 <JackShedd> why is imap a special case?
21:57:49 <hondzik> I'm afraid of IMAP (because I know nothing about it)
21:58:06 <hondzik> k-fish: no, 4.01 :)
21:58:24 <k-fish> well, no problem 4.0.6 > 4.0.1. no?
21:58:37 * k-fish is irritated
21:58:41 <hondzik> k-fish: you are right
21:58:48 <k-fish> :) ok, on IMAP.
21:59:04 <k-fish> Loge wanted MGW to be completely independent of non-standard extensions.
21:59:23 <k-fish> IMAP has to be enabled when installing PHP, so he wanted to have a PHP-only IMAP solution
21:59:55 <k-fish> I'd say this add more error-potential than needed. if one wantes IMAP, can't we expect him to have the IMAP extension comoiled?
21:59:58 <hondzik> I agree with him in this
22:00:07 <JackShedd> seems like alot of work...especially when the library is already there....
22:00:22 <k-fish> or, the other way round: you want IMAP? Then compile it.
22:00:34 <k-fish> and i think most providers compile it in ,no?
22:00:50 <hondzik> k-fish: i don't need it, so I don't want it :)
22:01:02 <k-fish> no problem then.
22:01:24 <k-fish> you would only need IMAP extension if you wanted to use IMAP.

new modules

22:02:39 <k-fish> ok, next topic?
22:02:45 <hondzik> yes
22:02:47 <stunti> yes
22:02:52 <k-fish> new mdoules, we talked about this earlier.
22:02:54 <JackShedd> couldn't the mail module just detect the imap extenstions and enable or disable the options?
22:03:02 <k-fish> JackShedd: probably
22:03:09 <JackShedd> Seems like best way to do it.
22:03:25 <JackShedd> Who in the world would want to write IMAP from scratch>?
22:03:26 <k-fish> ok, modules, webmail first: i will mail emailtotom and ask about his progress.
22:03:42 <k-fish> JackShedd: _I_ don't... ;o)
22:04:02 <k-fish> notes: i will backport for 0.6.5
22:04:03 <hondzik> jack: never thought about writing it :)
22:04:25 <k-fish> tts: stunti will look at it, probably for 0.6.5 or 0.6.6?
22:04:37 <stunti> normaly 0.6.5
22:04:43 <stunti> i ll try to :)
22:04:56 <k-fish> filemanager: we should check thomas' sanchez stuff. seems to work well.
22:05:16 <hondzik> and what about phonemsg?
22:05:22 <k-fish> who did that?
22:05:35 <hondzik> Steen Rabol
22:05:56 <JackShedd> was anyone interested in my outboard module?
22:06:14 <JackShedd> wasn't sure if it was needed, or if I should convert to 0.6
22:06:20 <k-fish> JackShedd: yes, as i replied to the list...
22:06:31 <hondzik> Jack: yes
22:06:34 <k-fish> i would like to see it in MGW.
22:07:03 <k-fish> so, will you backport it again?
22:07:05 <JackShedd> coolio. I'll convert to 0.6 tommorow
22:07:12 <k-fish> :)
22:07:13 <hondzik> great
22:07:19 <JackShedd> I think I still have the original 0.6 base lying around...
22:07:21 <k-fish> do you have a account?
22:07:34 <JackShedd> yeah.,..I think...
22:07:36 <JackShedd> jackshedd
22:07:46 <k-fish> hondzik: shall we let him in?
22:07:46 <JackShedd> haven't used in awhile...
22:07:58 * k-fish forgot the :)
22:08:11 <hondzik> i think we can
22:08:18 <k-fish> ok, will do.
22:08:30 <hondzik> ok
22:08:42 <k-fish> while we are at it, what about gary marshall? he provided quite some holidays stuff...
22:09:12 <k-fish> his patches were good, if he wants to join in...
22:09:21 <hondzik> it was not bad, we can give him some write access if he wants
22:09:32 <JackShedd> if someone can just hand me a list of to-dos, I'll start cracking...
22:09:36 <JackShedd> :)

PDA syncing

22:10:08 <k-fish> ok. lemme look at my papers here...
22:10:36 <k-fish> only one thing left: PDA sync
22:10:46 <k-fish> hondzik: you talked to yoyo about this?
22:10:56 <JackShedd> how can that be done?
22:11:20 <k-fish> there are some options.
22:11:35 <JackShedd> such as? ( clueless and interested )
22:11:45 <k-fish> i have been in touch with yoyo for a while now, and we have some possible ways worked out.
22:11:51 <hondzik> yes, I told him that my coleague did calendar and todos sync for coldsync in perl, but it's not bugless and he is in thailand now
22:12:23 <hondzik> but I hope he will be back in next few days
22:12:32 <JackShedd> It's quite easy to do with OS X...but that's OS X.
22:12:44 <JackShedd> God love AppleScript :)
22:12:51 <k-fish> yoyo came up with this:
22:13:08 <k-fish> 1. coldsync conduit (one way mgw->palm)
22:13:19 <k-fish> 2. refine it to do moregroupware <->palm
22:13:43 <k-fish> 3. use java (jsync) to further improve this (mgw->palm)
22:13:59 <k-fish> 4. refine this one to do 2way mgw<->palm
22:14:17 <k-fish> then maybe do it over the net suing SOAP...
22:14:44 <hondzik> or better XML-RPC (w3c standard)
22:14:48 <k-fish> this has advantages and drawbacks, obviously, which i have in his mail
22:14:58 <JackShedd> why not just go net/soap in the first place?
22:15:04 <k-fish> right. SOAP and XML-RPC are very similar anyway.
22:15:30 <k-fish> JackShedd: might work, but yoyo needs something for his local needs _fast_
22:15:39 <JackShedd> ah.
22:15:49 <k-fish> but probably whatever is done can be used alter on.
22:15:55 <k-fish> s/alter/later
22:16:39 <k-fish> but: doing this will only make sense if contacts internals are stable. so does anyone want to have something in the contacts db that isn't yet?
22:17:35 <k-fish> (anyway, yoyo is having some developer who just waits for the budget :)
22:18:08 <JackShedd> wait...coldsync is *NIX only?
22:18:37 <k-fish> JackShedd: yes. that's why java came in to play...
22:18:49 <JackShedd> ah. gotcha...
22:19:21 <k-fish> jsync seems to be something from sun or palm, don't know for sure.
22:19:55 <JackShedd> does anyone run MGW w/o MySql?
22:20:04 <hondzik> no
22:20:07 <stunti> no
22:20:25 <JackShedd> does MySQL have C libraries for access?
22:20:47 <k-fish> JackShedd: yes.
22:20:56 <stunti> yes (this is used in the php extension :) )
22:21:11 <k-fish> JackShedd: for syncing to a palm?
22:21:24 <JackShedd> then, in theory, it should be possible to write a standard Palm conduit?
22:21:56 <hondzik> yes, but you must compile it for all platforms :(
22:22:00 <k-fish> but you would have to allow outside connections to your database. _i_ wont.
22:22:14 <JackShedd> what if it were server centralized?
22:22:21 <k-fish> on jsync: it is java for win only, c++ for mac. no unix.
22:22:57 <k-fish> JackShedd: how would you do that? have each palm user walk by the server? works, but should be solved better...
22:23:04 <JackShedd> No...\
22:23:10 <JackShedd> have a server conduit...
22:23:15 <JackShedd> and a client conduit/
22:23:23 <JackShedd> No outside database connection required.
22:23:37 <JackShedd> This is how OfficeTracker is going to handle it's next release, and it works quite well./
22:23:57 <JackShedd> course...again...alot of work...
22:24:11 <JackShedd> but I'm not seeing any option for palm syncing which isn't.
22:24:27 <k-fish> that is the plan (roughly). best might be to use syncml over http right from the start. but then again, no conduits available...
22:24:41 <k-fish> JackShedd: sadly, yes ;/
22:26:42 <JackShedd> if only all platforms had AppleScript...simple stuff...
22:26:44 <JackShedd> :(
22:27:07 <k-fish> 0 matches when searching for syncml on tststs...
22:27:36 <hondzik> maybe later with palmos5 :(
22:28:06 <k-fish> but what about my good ol' IBM WorkPad?
22:28:25 <hondzik> and my Palm Vx?
22:28:40 <k-fish> ok. anything constructive left in all our heads?
22:28:50 <hondzik> not in mine...
22:28:54 <stunti> no

smart update

22:31:27 <k-fish> hondzik: ah, what about the smart update stuff you wrote about?
22:31:33 <k-fish> any details?
22:31:54 <hondzik> no, only important feature request
22:32:06 <hondzik> i have no ideas how to do it
22:32:37 <k-fish> me neither. postpone it for 2.0? :)
22:32:56 <hondzik> first of all we can do something like 'stupid update' without internet downloads, just to change db structure
22:33:06 <hondzik> yeah, 2.0 :)
22:33:34 <k-fish> talking about updates, i will take care of db updates until we have some automated solution.
22:34:01 <hondzik> cool, until 0.6.4?
22:34:30 <k-fish> yes, see my 0.6.2-to-0.6.3 upgrade mail to the list. something along that line...
22:34:39 <hondzik> ok
22:34:50 <k-fish> shall we finish here?
22:35:24 <hondzik> yes, I must go home...
22:35:51 <k-fish> ok, thanks to all of you for joining in. i will summarize the session and put up the log.
22:36:02 <k-fish> see you.
22:36:07 <stunti> great
22:36:08 <hondzik> ok, see you
22:36:17 <stunti> bye
22:36:20 <-- hondzik has quit ("hungry and tired")
22:37:55 <-- JackShedd (~jack@ has left #Moregroupware
22:40:42 --- Disconnected ().